The Creationists

Chronicling the Life of Massey Hall with David McPherson

October 20, 2021 Steve Waxman Episode 39
The Creationists
Chronicling the Life of Massey Hall with David McPherson
Show Notes Transcript

Toronto’s Massey Hall joins Carnegie Hall, Royal Albert Hall and Boston’s Symphony Hall as one of the world's classic concert venues. But as author David McPherson discovered while researching the history of Massey, the hall has hosted plenty of events over the years in addition to iconic concerts it has been  associated with. 

In 2018, Massey Hall closed its doors for a long overdue massive restoration which promises to bring the hall into the 21st century and at the same time retain its charm and restore some of its hidden beauty. Around the same time, David McPherson and his publisher Dundurn Press met with Massey Hall’s management team to propose a comprehensive book chronicling its 125 year history. 

Whether you’ve only been to Massey Hall once or you’ve enjoyed dozens of nights in the venue, the experience is one that you’ll never forget. I have so many of my own fond memories such as seeing Elvis Costello there in 1978 or LL Cool J bringing  in the first full production hip hop I ever saw. I sang (poorly albeit) with Brian Wilson in one of the tiny backstage dressing rooms and I saw AC/DC for the first time in 1979. As a matter of fact, a photo I took of singer Bon Scott that night is included in David’s book. 

The plan is for the lights to turn back on at Massey Hall this November. Naturally the first live show will be with Gordon Lightfoot. When the total renovation is finally finished, in addition to a refurbished concert hall, there will be an expansion next door called the Allied Music Centre which will include a state of the art recording studio, a nite club, a performance theatre and collaborative workspaces for artists. In the meantime, David McPherson’s book chronicling the history of Massey Hall is in stores in early November and is available for pre-order now HERE

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Steve Waxman created this podcast.

Toronto’s Massey Hall joins Carnegie Hall, Royal Albert Hall and Boston’s Symphony Hall as one of the world's classic concert venues. But as author David McPherson discovered while researching the history of Massey, the hall has hosted plenty of events over the years in addition to iconic concerts it has been  associated with. 

In 2018, Massey Hall closed its doors for a long overdue massive restoration which promises to bring the hall into the 21st century and at the same time retain its charm and restore some of its hidden beauty. Around the same time, David McPherson and his publisher Dundurn Press met with Massey Hall’s management team to propose a comprehensive book chronicling its 125 year history. 

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Steve Waxman:  So first off, how did you get the gig?

David McPherson:  How did I get the gig? Well, I guess, to backup a bit, before this book I wrote a book on the Horseshoe Tavern and it did fairly well and I always kind of thought, well, you know, what's next and Massey Hall, surprisingly, I had thought about doing a book on Massey Hall well before I did the book on the Horseshoe. And then I discovered that, probably 15 years ago or something, that there was already a book that had been written to coincide with the centennial and so I kind of put it on the shelf and didn't think much about it. And then it was coming up to Massey Hall celebrating 125 years and getting set to close and have this big revitalization project so I figured why not after the success of the Horseshoe Tavern book. I love Massey. It's such a magical place and so I went ahead and pitched the publisher that printed my other book and they were on board right away. And then it was the same as with the Horseshoe book, I wanted to get kind of the owners on board to make sure it was kind of more of the official book, that I would get access and their help and their buy in and support and so that's what I did. My publisher, Dundurn, and I met with the folks in Massey Hall including the late Dean Cameron, early on, to get their buy-in and, you know, it just went from there.

Steve Waxman:  Well, given that there was already the 100th anniversary book, why did you think that another book, 25 years later, was worthwhile and why did the publisher think the same?

David McPherson:  Well I think once I started to dig back into that 100th Anniversary book, I mean it was a little more academic in nature, It also didn't really cover a lot that has happened in the last 25 years at Massey in terms of their mandate and the types of acts and that kind of thing and there were a lot of stories I guess that I didn't think had been told, especially in the areas that I'm most interested in, obviously the kind of rock, pop folk, indie and the different alternative rock genres that I think could have been more well represented. And yeah, so that was the reasoning that definitely there were a lot more stories that could be told. And when we got into it, as you've seen, it's a book that's also very photographic centric in many ways and the photos help tell the story and that was also something with this book that we knew it could be more. You know, have that feel where there's a lot more images and imagery that could be used that weren’t in the previous book.

Steve Waxman:  When you say that other book was more academic, what do you mean? What does that exactly mean?

David McPherson:  I guess, I mean in the way it was written from the point of view that it didn't have very many interviews.  It was very factual.  Maybe that's the way to put it.  There weren’t a lot of interviews per se that were done. Whereas I approached this, obviously, first and foremost, my background is as a journalist and journalism training so you know that's part of what I felt too could be that all of those voices that weren't in the previous book definitely would add to it, because that's really what Massey is about. It's a place that Hart Massey gave to the city of Toronto back in 1894 as a place for the people and it's about the people and I think that all the artists and people that had attended shows there, those kinds of voices were missing. So that's what I set about doing too. I mean I interviewed probably close to 100 people or more for this book and wove their stories throughout the various decades.

Steve Waxman:  Talk about Hart Massey. For people that don't know the beginnings of Massey Hall and one of the incredible things, and there are so many interesting stories about Massey Hall, obviously, but one of the incredible things is from the time that Hart Massey first mentioned it to somebody to the doors opening was only two years. So if you want to tell the story a little bit about Hart Massey, where he came from, and how he came to build Massey Hall.

David McPherson:  Yeah, for sure. Hart Massey basically kind of took over his father's business. It was kind of agricultural farming machinery and he took it to another level, really got farming implements patented and sold throughout the world, opened up a huge factory that was called The Works in the West End of Toronto on King Street, and ended up moving his family to Toronto. So I’m the late 1800s he was settled there and by that point he had amassed quite a fortune, and he wanted to give back. He was one of the early philanthropists that felt that, like the Andrew Carnegie's and people like that, that it was their duty to, if they were to make all this money, to give it back to those that could benefit from it. And that's how it started.  I guess that the tragic side of it is that one of his sons died quite early. I believe it was a typhoid fever. The gift of Massey Hall was because his son was musical and loved the symphony and loved the choir. He sang in the choir. So it ended up that this philanthropic gift was in memory of his son Charles who had passed away and that's what he wanted to do is to commemorate him and his love of music with this hall for the people of Toronto to enjoy for decades and he probably would never have imagined for centuries, you know more than a century to come.

Steve Waxman:  So, jumping back to the present from the past, when you had your meeting with the publisher and with the folks at Massey Hall were you given any kind of direction as to what they would like to see in the book, beyond what your proposal might have been?

David McPherson:  Not in that initial meeting per se. I obviously, like most authors when you approach a publisher, you have to give an outline and proposal for your book, kind of chapter by chapter and I basically had talked about different areas, different significant moments to focus on, that kind of thing. But it was more. I stressed, if you will, at that initial meeting, just like I did with the horseshoe, I've never been the type of writer and I'm not the type of person that wants to do any kind of tell-all reveal like critical type analysis per se. I knew from the start, this was going to be a labor of love. But it was not like I was going to gloss over any stories but this was going to be something where I was celebrating Massey Hall and what it means to the city of Toronto to Canada, and to the broader kind of live music ecosystem these days. That it's important that we preserve these heritage buildings and we're lucky in Canada that we still have a place like Massey that hasn't faced the wrecking ball like so many other buildings have in the past.

Steve Waxman:  So how do you go about starting such a massive project?

David McPherson:  Research, really. I mean we talked about that previous book and it really was my first point of research. It's a fantastic book called Intimate Grandeur by William Kilburn and I believe it's probably out of print by now but it came out in 1994 to celebrate the hall’s Centennial and it was a great starting point. So I had that book and then Massey Hall were very generous  giving me access to their archives and so then that's where I also spent quite a bit of time going through everything that they had in terms of old programs and old minutes from meetings and various other ephemera and things and from that tried to start take notes and craft a story. And from there it was doing interviews with people, kind of coming up with a wish list, if you will, of those I wanted to interview that I knew had played Massey or recorded an album there for, whatever reason. Maybe they work there. Trying to get a different perspective. But that's kind of the way I began, just with the research because that is one of the keys to any project or book like this. That's where you really have to begin, because then that helps you also find those stories and kind of see where it might lead and how kind of all the pieces connect.

Steve Waxman:  Well, I mean chasing down the artists is one thing, at least you can look at the itinerary and see who played here and chase down those people, but with regards to finding the employees over the years who had impact, how did that happen? How did you know who to talk to and how were you guided to the right people to talk to?

David McPherson:  Again, that's where I was lucky to have the help and support of the leadership of Massey Hall, the Dean Cameron's who, you know, unfortunately passed away a few years ago, but he was very helpful early on and knowing people who had worked there in the past. But the same with Jesse who's now the current president, he'd been at Massey for a long time. So he was able to help me out in that regard. And then the promoters were another key. They were someone I didn't kind of think of, for some reason, when I was doing my Horseshoe book but, I mean, they play a big role in terms of concert venues and so that was another person that I made sure I wanted to get involved in this story. People like Elliot Lefko who started promoting shows that the small clubs in Toronto and has gone on to much bigger places but  he still presents shows at Massey and other venues. And, you know, the Rob Bennett's who promoted shows throughout the 70s and 80s and 90s. Bernie Finkelstein. Bernie Fiedler. So I think that was part of it too, getting kind of their stories of all the shows they promoted there and all the artists that they worked with and make sure I got that perspective as well.

Steve Waxman:  Right, so what shape were the archives in when you got your hands on them?

David McPherson:  Well, surprisingly, I mean it's like a lot of these places, you'd expect to have such great archives but at some point in time, unfortunately I think some of their archives were destroyed by a fire, but the rest of them were in really good shape but I think that was more just kind of from the more recent period. But it really was in a parking garage in Roy Thomson Hall. They basically had a  locker room that just housed all these boxes and boxes and stuff. So it was very well organized and easy to access, but it wasn't  a fancy room or anything. It was surprising but it was amazing, the type of stuff they had. I mean they had all of the programs for the TSO dating back to the turn of the century and they had Cats costumes from when the hall had Cats, The Musical run there for seven, eight months in the late 80s So, it was neat to kind of dig through that stuff.

Steve Waxman:  To that end, what were some of the unusual things that you found that you didn't know that you would find that got you really really excited on a particular day?

David McPherson:  The big thing with Massey is a lot of people just think of it as a concert hall. I had a bit of an understanding that it had played host to so many other events over the years but once you dug into the archives and did research and newspapers, and that's where another one of my sources was going back and the old Globe and Mail, Toronto Star, Toronto Telegram archives, you know, through the various libraries. But, to find out Winston Churchill gave a speech there after the Boer War and Helen Keller spoke there. They had boxing matches as another example, wrestling matches, opera, typewriter contests. I mean it really ran the gamut.  There were all these things that you'd never imagined or you thought of that happened in those buildings I mean, prohibition rallies or temperance rallies, all sorts of things like that.  So I think that was kind of a neat thing just to discover and find out, you know, beyond the concerts. I mean, for myself as a concert lover, I mean that later on to, to see, oh wow, I didn't know so and so played there. I mean in the 70s, 80s or whatever but I think that that was kind of the coolest part if you will, just all those surprises of how many different types of events have been hosted inside those doors. 

Steve Waxman:  You know, there's also a number of iconic moments at Massey Hall that maybe not everybody knows, but people have heard of whether it's Caruso singing to the people off of the fire escape or the live jazz recordings that were made back in the 50s that became groundbreaking recordings.  Can you talk a little bit about some of those iconic events that you cover in the book?

David McPherson:  Yeah, well, I mean you touched on one of them, the jazz concert. Back in 1953, it's one of those things, it was put on by the local jazz society and they didn't really do a lot of advertising. The promoter was sure that he could get the place filled with word of mouth and it wasn’t.  It was barely even half full, but it ended up being the only time that these five jazz greats played together. They ended up becoming known as a quintet, Dizzy Gillespie, Charlie Parker, Max Roach, Charles Mingus and Bud Powell. The thing was even sold out but then this record was made and then this mythology around it just got created and since it's been kind of dubbed as the greatest jazz concert ever, right. And so a lot of people who maybe never have heard of Massey Hall or don't know about it they've kind of found out about it through this jazz show. And then I think from there, because of the acoustics and the intimacy of the place, it's always been known for a great room for sound from the artists. There's been so many records recorded there. Neil Young, in 1971, did his live at Massey Hall record that only came out much later in time as you know from your time at Warner, in the later 2000s. Burton Cummings recorded an album there. Rush did All The Worlds a Stage, ther big album there in the 70s. Gordon Lightfoot recorded there. Blue Rodeo. So, I mean, that in itself, I think, speaks to what a special place it is. I mean these artists wouldn't choose that venue to record their records if they didn't have such respect for it and knew what great sound they were going to get out of that recording.

Steve Waxman:  Well, you bring up acoustics. You bring up the great sound. You retell a really awesome story about in 1961, I believe, where the acoustics were tested in a very unique way. Can you share that story a little bit here.

David McPherson:  Yeah, that was kind of a neat story. They were trying to test the acoustics and they brought this expert in and he had this pistol that he used to let it go off to hear how that sound echoed and reverberated. It was a way to tell what incredible sound is in that building. But part of the revitalization over the last number of years, that's something they are dealing with. There always were issues. You know, certain spots that didn't sound as great. And that's where they, again they brought in a world renowned acoustician to kind of do all these studies and work with the all the other people doing the revitalization to make sure that they could bring the sound up even more, because that was the one thing, you talked to all the artists and some of them afraid. You know, the Jim Cuddy's saying just don't mess with the sound. And so I can't wait to get in there for my first show and to hear what it sounds like. But I'm confident that everything they did was about respecting the past and not changing it, just enhancing it where they could, and making those tweaks. Whether it was in the seating with new seats that are better to absorb the sound or in the walls, the restored plaster, things like that. But they will all help the way the sound comes back to the stage and out to the audience to give an even greater listening experience.

Steve Waxman:  You know, it's funny, obviously before I read your book I didn't know a lot of the history prior to the first time I stepped into Massey Hall in the mid 70s, but walking by Massey Hall, you always saw the stained glass windows on the outside but when you were inside you never saw them. And it's interesting that, to your point about acoustics how they were constantly working on acoustics and sound leading and how they covered them up. And now, people are going to be inside Massey Hall and see them again for the first time in over 100 years.

David McPherson:  Yeah and I think that's going to be spectacular. I know right before, Dean Cameron, the former president, who was president of EMI for many years before that, I think he was able to see the stained glass either being removed or put back in and that was a really emotional experience for him and I know it will be for anyone that goes in there because like you said, these are stained glass that were created, you know well over 100 years ago and they've been boarded up. And the reason was for sound in a way it was sunlight, and also for sound of the horse traffic in the early years that it was hard to hear the shows. But now they've got new technology and whatever that they've been able to both get experts to refurbish the stained glass windows and put them back in but allow that the sound issue won't be won't be a factor. And I think it's just going to be spectacular, so I can't wait to see those the first time I walk through those three red doors again.

Steve Waxman:  So when did you start putting the structure of the book together? The structure that it has right now is fairly chronological. Was it going to be that way from the very beginning?

David McPherson:  No, to be honest, it wasn't. I think partly with my last book I did it chronological, for the most part, and maybe that's why I thought oh I've got to do things a little differently and maybe I'll do things a little by theme or sections, different chapters that kind of relate by theme if you will, or a different way. And thank goodness for editors because I had a fantastic editor. Allison that I worked with on my last book and this book as well and she's the one early on that helped kind of restructure and realize that no, you've got to do it chronologically, and that really helped me kind of focus more and fit the stories in where they work best. And also, just the idea of having sidebars and things I think because I interviewed so many people. And that was part of it. Sometimes I'd have a quote or something I didn't quite know where can I fit this in and I think that was a nice thing with a book like this, it was easy to say, 'Okay, well let's pull that quote that Geddy Lee or whomever says about the building and we can stick it in as a nice sidebar that fits well in this section. And again, that's what a good editor brings. They help us writers, you know, see that bigger picture sometimes and see how those pieces fit when we're just kind of putting the words on the page and not seeing the structure.

Steve Waxman:  I mean that's part of the fun of the book too, Geddy Lee telling the story but seeing Cream for the first time in Massey Hall and then having a ticket stub there from that particular show in the book was really really cool. Talking about the sidebars, I also like the way you tell stories in whole, as opposed to, you know, there are some stories that obviously that are just little segments throughout the book, but there are other more important stories that are told in whole as sidebars so that you can get the entire story in such as the story of the Dylan concert with The Band, where Robbie Robinson came home for the first time and got booed unexpectedly.

David McPherson:  Yeah, and that was a challenge. But I think that's what, again, made it easier to get some of those stories that I felt like you said were worth including and not condensing or watering down if you will. It was a way to allow those voices to speak on their own without me having to try and weave them into the bigger narrative.

Steve Waxman:  And certainly, those of us from a much younger generation, I think we'll learn a lot about it being the home of the TSO and it being the home of the Mendelssohn Choir, and really how important those to those two entities were too Massey Hall over the years, basically sustaining it over the years.

David McPherson:  Oh definitely, I mean they were some of the earliest tenants and some of the longest tenants. And you're right, but many years when there there wasn't a lot of other acts or music or performances that were coming through something like the TSO, they had the the regular subscription series and regular shows, and same with the Mendelssohn Choir that every year they had many many shows including their annual Messiah show at Christmas and until the TSO moved to Roy Thomson Hall when it opened in the early 80s, it had been thereI think almost over 60 years. So definitely the Toronto Symphony played an integral role, and that's a neat thing too that a lot of people you talk to maybe that was their first experience with Massey Hall, going to see the symphony with their parents or grandparents or something like you or I going to see a rock concert.

Steve Waxman:  And then you couldn't separate Gordon Lightfoot from Massey Hall for the 130-140 times that he's played there over the years. And then Blue Rodeo played there several dozen times. Neil having played there several times, and how important that then you became to Canadian artists and how it became a bucket list stage for Canadian artists. Barenaked Ladies that became a home for them for a while as well. And I think that  what's really great too is that the book brings us to current times and talks about how important the stage at Massey Hall became to showcasing Canadian artists, but also, you go into great detail about how Massey Hall is bringing up young artists and helping them cultivate their careers so that they can potentially get to the Massey Hall stage.

David McPherson:  For sure. Well, it's actually another part of Massey Hall, a lot of people don't think if they just buy a ticket, go to the show and you know they love it as a fantastic concert venue, but Massey Hall, Roy Thomson Hall as an entity in an organization is a not for profit and part of their, their mandate is about artists development and community outreach and education and so those were, I think key, you know, telling this story I wanted to make sure that that that piece was told as well because you touched on it that you have artists like, you know the matt Mays and Surina writers and, you know Matt Anders, Sen. Ron Sexsmith back in the day Whitehorse all these bands that, You know, they started off playing smaller stages, and, and a number of them. Folks from Massey Hall actually worked with them and came up with a long, long term plan or strategy, you know, how are we going to get you to Massey Hall, like one of those. Okay, we're going to start, you'll play your first show at the Rivoli then we're gonna move up to the Glenn Gould center, and then the Winter Garden, and eventually, I think you'll build up the audience so that you can play Massey Hall. And I think that's a fantastic story in itself, that they are supporting all these artists and staying with them in their careers. And if you talk to any of them today that's what they'll say is that, you know, they hope that they'll be with these artists, you know, throughout the long haul, like, you know, as long as like a Gordon Lightfoot, you know that they'll still be playing there, you know 10 1520 years from now, if their career allows it. And the one other neat thing is, I mean, you mentioned that how it became a bucket list, place, and the one thing that Jesse, the current president, Kuma guy told me that I thought really resonates, is the idea that Massey Hall it, it's one of those places that its artists aspire to write on their way up, as we talked about these artists wanting to play there, but the people like the Neil Young's and that surprisingly, they, they reach a certain level, but they still want to play there right so it's kind of a sad neat, you know, sweet spot where, you know, even though you've achieved such stardom or fame or such a huge audience that you've moved well beyond the theater of Massey Hall, and you can sell out arenas, there's still, you know people like Neil that would rather come back and play three four nights at Massey than play you know, Scotiabank down the road kind of thing so I think that's kind of a neat story too.

Steve Waxman:  Yeah, I mean, I remember I think back in the mid 90s Bryan Adams played a week at Massey Hall when he could have been playing. Maple Leaf Gardens, and that was such a huge event in the city. That's that an artist that big at that time was playing at Massey Hall for 2700 people a night as opposed to playing for 20,000 people.

David McPherson:  Yeah, well I remember talking to Randy Bachman and that was kind of the point he made. He said 'I was always jealous of Lightfoot and Neil and Joni and all those guys that they get to play Massey for multiple nights and I never played there until many years later because with the Guess Who and BTO they've kind of rose and skipped the theater stage, right. They went right to selling out arenas.' And he always said 'I would love to play Massey Hall.' So I think that's kind of neat that here's an artist that has achieved a lot of fame too and he went on to play Massey later on but just the fact that artists at so many different levels still just love the place. I don't know if you recall from the book about Stompin' Tom that when he came back out of retirement a bit in the early 90s, he'd always wanted to finish his tour at Massey. I think a lot of artists do that. It's kind of like the homecoming show or the culmination of a tour. What better place to kind of wrap things up but at Massey, right?

Steve Waxman:  Did you know about the programs that Massey Hall and Roy Thomson Hall had, the public programs that they had before you started working on this book?

David McPherson:  Yeah, I was aware of them a little bit but not to the extent, especially more of the community outreach and educational programs because that's really newer in the last 5-10 years. And those programs are fantastic as well. You know, they get artists to bring in a school group as an example or go to a school and teach them about recording or they write a song together. And then there's another really neat program that they've kind of adopted I think from Carnegie Hall, this lullaby program where it's a mother and her newborn and the same thing, they match them up with an artist and they create a lullaby for the mother to sing to her baby and they record it.  So, I think, again, it's all about giving back to the community a lot, and that's the theme that really resonated and I started out this project with, if you will, as my thesis, Hart Massey's original vision about Massey Hall being a place for the people. And once you see all these programs that they're doing and you realize that it's kind of continued, what he wanted for the place. As I joke, I think he might be rolling over in his grave if he knew he'd have bands like Iron Maiden and AC/DC play there or maybe some of the stuff that had gone on backstage and some of those rock shows in the 70s. But I think he'd be quite happy that the place is still standing and it's still giving back to the people of Toronto and Canada really with the arts and entertainment and education. You know everything that we've noticed in this pandemic that still lingers that people crave, right, we need these outlets and we need the arts, I think, more than ever. So I think we're lucky that places like Massey still exist and are there to serve the people and offer great programming.

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Whether you’ve only been to Massey Hall once or you’ve enjoyed dozens of nights in the venue, the experience is one that you’ll never forget. I have so many of my own fond memories such as seeing Elvis Costello there in 1978 or LL Cool J bringing  in the first full production hip hop I ever saw. I sang (poorly albeit) with Brian Wilson in one of the tiny backstage dressing rooms and I saw AC/DC for the first time in 1979. As a matter of fact, a photo I took of singer Bon Scott that night is included in David’s book. 

The plan is for the lights to turn back on at Massey Hall this November. Naturally the first live show will be with Gordon Lightfoot. When the total renovation is finally finished, in addition to a refurbished concert hall, there will be an expansion next door called the Allied Music Centre which will include a state of the art recording studio, a nite club, a performance theatre and collaborative workspaces for artists. In the meantime, David McPherson’s book chronicling the history of Massey Hall is in stores in early November and is available for pre-order now HERE